How old is classic???

[Rapier]

I think the last time we debated this a few years ago an end date of 1980 was being booted around; which also singled a change in outboard designs too. A lot of late 1960s to early grp '70s moulds continued production into the 90s with Shakespeare being a common example and Roger Clark extended Glastron's 60s and 70's designs for many years. Light Craft and other magazines show Norman Fletcher's little Arrow 120 around the 1961/62 mark. Not everyone's cup of tea, but still worthy of inclusion without ridicule.

Unless you have a well known marque (I talk only about our type of sub 5m boats..), either low volume, or desired by the market...very, very few (english) boats appreciate over time, again you might see spikes in classic values because of a mint barn find, or restoration coming to market, prompting similar hopes for one's own pile of bits. I'd also pay over the odds for an example that's been owned / built by a CMBA member that has also been properly cherished and maintained.

Some where I have a 16GT test...now where did I put it.

[jeepster]

"Some where I have a 16GT test...now where did I put it."

WOW!...I'd love to see that!

[jeepster]

I like to think of my boat as a "classic" although technically it was built in 2012 and so probably the newest boat in the CMBA! I always like to think of classics by the way they are styled but I'd say the 25 year bracket sounds about right

I liked your video links...Amazing how you can turn a bit of old plywood and a few strips of timber into something so beautiful and functional

[jeepster]

Same here as water-buoy new boat but 50's design with an old outboard and some of the wood came from a classic boat that got washed up on the beach Happy Day

Great video...I had never really considered building a wooden boat myself as I know how easily they can rot if not looked after and on planked hulls, how much they leak until the wood swells and makes them watertight...Seems like too much time and trouble to me. I am interested in how you got such a glossy finish on the plywood hull though?
Several coats of Yacht varnish sprayed on and polished flat with an electric polisher or some fancy two pack epoxy coating? It looks amazing.
I was considering building a boat in steel, once, as it was, and probably still is, the cheapest boat construction material about. Also, its obviously strong and durable, its quick and easy to fabricate and weld, and once welded properly a steel hull is instantly watertight.
The main downside of course is weight but the sort of boat I was designing was a 20-21 foot (ish), widebeam, liveaboard cabin cruiser for a near permanent free mooring I have secured on the tidal Thames, where weight isn't going to be a problem.
When I say "widebeam", it would have been anywhere from 8' beam up to a few inches shy of the maximum towable width limit without an Police escort of 9' 6" beam, to make it as roomy as possible for its length.
Sadly, work, life and a lack of suitable place to build it eventually ended that dream.
The only way I could afford to buy my current boat, Jeepster, was because I went self employed and so had a bit of spare money left over at the end of the tax year. She cost me £1600 on ebay (including the engine and trailer).
Actually, my dream job would be to work in a boatyard, building and repairing boats, preferably steel ones, but there are less and less boatyards about thesedays, especially in my area. The famous Toughs boatyard in Teddington is long gone, leaving only a few tiny outfits in Hampton, Brentford and Twickenham and in this tough economic climate I dont think they will need any extra staff right now...You never know though...

[delta ray]

When a classic is, a classic, is a good question!....
There's always been a fine line in this as to the term collectible/classic...
It is true that the classic car industry has deemed the age of 25 years to be regarded as this but the boat sector is by far very different....
It all depends on how many produced and to the final costs of the craft!...
But all said if its a general production craft which coming of age to be regarded as a classic, you can be safe in saying
40 years or more is the age....

[Tatra Man]

It is true that the classic car industry has deemed the age of 25 years to be regarded as this but the boat sector is by far very different....

Oh really!!??

As Sicobra has correctly pointed out on page 1 of this thread, VED (Vehicle Excise Duty) is no longer free for cars over 25 years old. In 1997 the "Historic Vehicle" exemption for 25-year-old vehicles was frozen in time and still remains as any vehicle built before the 1st of January 1973. In addition, from the 18th of November this year, MOTs will no longer be required for any vehicle built before the 1st of January 1960 - a different definition of "Historic Vehicle". The FIVA, however, has a draft document - The Charter of Turin - which defines a "Historic Vehicle" as a mechanically propelled road vehicle which is at least 30 years old, which is preserved and maintained in a historically correct condition and which is not used as a means of daily transport.

"Antique" is well defined as anything over 100 years old (although the Americans use the term incorrectly and vaguely).
"Veteran" is any vehicle built up to 31st December 1904. (Only these cars may take part in the annual London to Brighton run.)
"Edwardian" is a term applied to vehicles built from 1905 until the end of the Great War in 1918. (The Veteran Car Club (VCC) covers pre-WW1 cars.)
"Vintage" is any vehicle made from the end of the Great War, effectively 1919, until the end of 1930 after which the VSCC considered cars declined in quality of construction.
"Post Vintage Thoroughbred" (PVT) is considered to be cars made from 1931 to the end of 1940 provided they continued to meet certain quality standards e.g. Rolls Royce, Sunbeam, Lagonda, Alvis, Bentley, Talbot, Invicta etc.. (The Vintage Sports Car Club (VSCC) covers pre-WW2 cars.)
"Classic" is a term usually applied to collectible vehicles which don't fit into any prior category but the term has no strict definition and certainly no cut-off date either fixed or rolling.

A 1923 Austin 7 saloon would be a Vintage vehicle but a 1936 Austin 7 Ruby, for example, is not classified as a PVT despite its age but would almost certainly be accepted by all as a Classic for its part in bringing motoring to the masses.

In my strictly personal opinion, a classic vehicle is one which has contributed to the history of motoring by either design or technical innovation. As an example, DeLorean DMC12 - yes, Morris Marina - no. The problem is that this begs the question of cars like the Volkswagen "Beetle" which brought nothing new which hadn't already been done by Tatra and the MGB which brought nothing new which hadn't already been done by Sunbeam. Both were undeniably popular and have such sizeable followings that anyone trying to deny them the appelation "Classic" would be lynched!

Therein lies the problem - opinions.

So is an Albatross a classic boat but a Delta not? Are the people who organise the Traditional Boat rally on the Thames wrong in excluding aluminium? Is fibreglass "infra-dig"? How much departure from originality is acceptable before a boat becomes the aquatic equivalent of a custom car or hot-rod?

Personally (again) I would like to see a rolling date before which any vehicle is a "Historic" and a later rolling date before which any vehicle of agreed merit is a "Classic" and I would like to see that applied to cars, lorries, tractors and, yes, boats.

So start with the FIVA age bracket of 30 years and preserved and maintained in historically correct condition as a definition of a "Historic Boat". Then add a looser definition of any boat over 20 years of age of agreed merit or over 30 years old but not historically correct as a "Classic Boat".

Maybe our Editor can use that as a basis for a magazine article so we can take this suggestion further? If so, I'm happy to re-draft it in a suitable form.

[Rapier]

David K wrote an interesting article on the subject in the Spring 2007 magazine, again with the Austin 7 analogy but dealing more with the 'what makes a boat a classic boat'. The jury is always out on this, as shown by the postings in the finds; friends here tell me I have very odd views and taste, which is what it boils down to, an individual's view. Dan or Ivan would welcome an article for the magazine and are always looking for restoration articles too. Their details are on the back of the mag...they like high res pics too.

[solitaire]

Fine words and very useful information on defining the dictionary meaning of classic – but personally I hope this thread doesn’t run....

Like many of our members I love the CMBA club because of its diversity and variety of boats engines and owners, be it 20 years old, just built or sixty years old.

When we struggle to get half a dozen boats on the water at an event I would think “all are welcome” And as they say over the pond - “run what you brung”

Personally I don’t think we have enough members to begin defining what constitutes a classic, if it’s interesting, unusual, one of a kind, rare to find in good condition, work in progress or even a “rat” boat, they all have a story or history.

Cardiff was a great example of the CMBA variety – from pre-war to new-build – every one of them was a classic, and we even have the bonus of old engines kept alive in newer boats and newer engines on/in older boats

Please let us never get like some of the car clubs or groups where so called “classic car” owners and clubs have become so elitist they won’t speak to an owner of what they perceive to be an inferior make, i.e. - an MGA or TR3 owner may look down on an MGB / TR7 owner .

For me, Not trying define a “ Classic Boat” works! And trying to define one may lead to the “my classic is more classic than your classic” culture that can exist in some car clubs.

[Alacrity]

Rapier & Solitaire sum it up for me, we all see 'classic' differently. A purist will look down on a boat not correctly restored or with the wrong engine in it. Others will see the same boat as another one saved & full marks to the owner. This debate will run & run & never ever be resolved.

[floater]

Following on from the previous comment and to further fuel the debate, how do we categorise the (hypothetical) 2008 Bayliner fitted with the 1968 Mercury or the 1963 broom fitted with the 1996 Honda. Boats seem more prone to evolution through their lives than cars and finding parts to recreate the originality seems more difficult ,so much so that true "original" boats must be like hens teeth.

I used to work with a guy that had a car fitted with replacement wings but that he was very proud to say had original paint